TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
Page 3 sur 22 • 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12 ... 22
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mar 29 Sep 2009, 21:05
Northrop se plaint que Boeing a eu accès à leurs chiffres de leur réponse de l'année dernière et deamnde à avoir accès aux chiffres de Boeing. ce que refuse le Pentagone en disant que ces chiffres sont obsolètes.
Voila qui va donner du grain à moudre à certains lawyers.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]Northrop Vice President Paul Meyer said Tuesday that his company needs pricing information on Boeing's failed tanker bid from last year. Because Boeing was given prices on the bid Northrop made in partnership with Airbus, "it is fundamentally unfair, and distorts any new competition," Meyer said.
Ashton Carter, the Pentagon's top weapons buyer, dismissed an earlier complaint from Northrop in comments he made last week, saying the data in question were outdated and didn't pertain to the new contest. Northrop said Tuesday it expects to hold discussions with Defense Department officials to resolve the issue.
A Boeing spokesman said Boeing was satisfied that the Air Force had dealt with the pricing-information issue.
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mar 29 Sep 2009, 23:59
C'était aussi mon sentiment quand j'avais traduit la méthode d'affectation des points.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
U.S. Air Force
Boeing says a potential 777-based aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] would be able to offload 30 percent more fuel than a rival Airbus A330-based tanker. But the Air Force's draft tanker criteria would give it no credit for that extra capacity.
The Air Force's draft [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] requires tankers to offload at least 94,000 pounds of fuel at 1,000 nautical miles. It then gives extra points for extra capacity, up to a maximum of 10 extra points for offloading at least 147,000 pounds of fuel at 1,000 nm.
According to [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien], its 767-based tanker offloads 97,000 pounds of fuel at 1,000 nm, meeting the mandatory requirement but qualifying it for no extra points. The 777-based tanker offloads 199,000 pounds of fuel at 1,000, which is substantially more than the 153,000 pounds Boeing says the Northrop-EADS Airbus A330-based tanker can offload, but qualifies it for no more bonus points than its rival.
The bonus points would only come into play if the prices for competing proposals were within 1 percent of each other, after adjustments to account for how many of each tanker it would need to meet demand on the worst imaginable day and day-to-day cost of ownership factors.
Boeing has touted the extra fuel capacity as one of the big advantages a 777-based tanker would have over the A330-based rival.
On Tuesday, Boeing tanker spokesman Bill Barksdale declined to comment on the issue, saying company officials had not yet finished reviewing the draft request for proposals
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Mer 30 Sep 2009, 00:26
La même chose sous le lien :
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Northrop: Boeing has 'unfair' edge in tanker deal
Associated Press/AP Online, 2009-09-29
By DONNA BORAK
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has given Boeing Co. an "unfair" advantage in the latest competition for a troubled $35 billion tanker contract, a Northrop Grumman Corp. executive said Tuesday.
The Pentagon shared Northrop's pricing data from its previous bid with Chicago-based Boeing, but did not reveal Boeing's cost estimates to Northrop.
"It is fundamentally unfair, and distorts any new competition, to provide such critical information to only one of the bidders," Paul Meyer, a Northrop Grumman vice president, said in a statement. "The company will continue to work with its customer to fully resolve this issue."
Mais, ceci veut dire que NG-EADS est en train de préparer le Pentagone à la possibilité d'un refus de NG-EADS de soumettre une offre.
Si un tel refus se concrétisait, il faudrait refaire les TdR et les règles d'évaluation des offres, et d'attribution des contrats. Quel processus !
Réaction hautrment discutable ! Ce n'est pas de cette façon qu'on qu'on drée une ambiance équitable entre les concurrents !Los Angeles-based Northrop and partner Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co. N.V. are competing against Boeing for the third time to replace the aging refueling tankers.
The Pentagon's chief weapons buyer, Ashton Carter, told reporters last week the department found "no competitive disadvantage" following its examination of Northrop's claim. Carter said the information in question was inaccurate, outdated or not relevant to the new competition.
The Pentagon declined further comment Tuesday.
"The Air Force clearly and definitively dealt with this issue and we look forward to our first meeting with them in this competition,"
Boeing spokesman Bill Barksdale said in a statement.
The Air Force has failed twice to award a contract to replace its Eisenhower-era fleet of 179 tankers. Northrop won the deal in February 2008. Boeing later successfully protested the award after congressional investigators found the Air Force failed to evaluate both proposals on the same merits.
The 2004 award to Boeing was undone by an ethics scandal that resulted in prison terms for a former company executive and a former Air Force official.
The service has said it will be "crystal clear" in its requirements for new tankers that refuel military planes in flight in order to avoid errors from previous selection processes.
"Wait & see" !
Dernière édition par SEVRIEN le Mer 30 Sep 2009, 00:53, édité 1 fois
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mer 30 Sep 2009, 00:30
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]WASHINGTON, 29 septembre (Reuters) - Le gouvernement américain a donné à Boeing un avantage "particulièrement injuste" dans le marché des avions ravitailleurs en négociation, a estimé mardi son concurrent Northrop Grumman , allié à EADS pour la circonstance.
"Northrop Grumman est grandement préoccupé par le fait que les informations sur ses prix lors d'un précédent appel d'offres aient été divulguées à son concurrent par le gouvernement", écrit Paul Meyer, vice-président de Northrop, dans un communiqué.
"En mettant un tel accent sur le prix dans ce nouvel appel d'offres et alors que Northrop propose à nouveau son ravitailleur KC-45, de telles informations sur les prix ont une importance plus grande encore."
Cet appel d'offres constitue la troisième tentative en huit ans visant à remplacer les avions ravitailleurs KC-135 de l'US Air Force, dont l'âge moyen dépasse aujourd'hui 50 ans.
L'an dernier, l'attribution du contrat, estimé à 35 milliards de dollars (24 milliards d'euros) à Northrop et EADS, qui présentaient un appareil dérivé de l'Airbus A330, avait été annulée après un recours de Boeing, les autorités de contrôle ayant jugé la procédure "trop subjective".
Ce même contrat avait été attribué une première fois à Boeing mais une affaire de conflit d'intérêts avait abouti à le lui retirer
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mer 30 Sep 2009, 00:37
Personnellement je ne trouve assez "unfair" que Boeing puisse avoir eu accès au données de la précédente soummission de Northrop et que l'inverse ne soit pas vrai. A noter que la réaction du Pentagone reconnait implicitement le fait.
Cette "erreur" est d'autant plus importante que la réponse de Boeing ne peut logiqquement uniquement que s'orienter vers le 767.
Je n'avais pas envisagé la possibilité pour EADS de ne pas répondre. Dans ce cadre le combat des lawyers reprendrait.
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Mer 30 Sep 2009, 01:05
Las avocats n'auraient pas grand'chose à dire ! Mais, ayant horreur du vide, ... ils trouveraient beeaucoup de bla-bla à émettre comme d'habitude !Jeannot a écrit:
....Je n'avais pas envisagé la possibilité pour EADS de ne pas répondre. Dans ce cadre le combat des lawyers reprendrait.
Le problème est que, le droit américain, et le droit international correspondant, interdisent l'octroi du contrat, quand il y a refus fondé de soumissionner. L'expérience tend à montrer que c'est un retour "à la case départ, moins une"! Réfection des TdR, et / ou des règles connexes !
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mer 30 Sep 2009, 01:10
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Jeu 01 Oct 2009, 10:02
Voilà le problème !Jeannot a écrit:Cela ne va pas aider l'USAF à régler son problème de ravitailleurs....
Autre lien :
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
DATE:01/10/09. SOURCE:Flight International
Northrop Grumman calls new KC-X competition unfair
By [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Cela ne veut vraiment pas dire grand'chose ! Sauf en terme d'empoisonnements au niveau rédactionnel, et en terme de révélation de favoritisme envers Boeing ! Les USA cherchent à tromper qui ? Si les dirigeants des USA veulent gagner, voir gagner Boeing, .... à ce point-là, ...à tout prix, ... après avoir éé rondement battu, ... de manière loyale, ..... qu'ils le disent clairement, une fois pour toutes, et qu'ils ne nous cassent plus les pieds & oreilles ! Ils ne font qu'abaisser l'image de lur pays sur toute la planète, y compris, surtout, parmis leurs "amis" ! Cela suffit ! Que disent ces petits naïfs qui portenr ncore des "lunettes Obama" ? A-t-il été élu pour faire du protectionnisme ? Je ne ais pas ! Ce n'est pas moi qui vote ! Mais je dis que je ne comprends pas ce qu'il nous a apporté dans les relations à affermir dansle bon sens entre les USA et leurs alliés européens !Two competitors vying a second time for the $35 billion KC-X contract have responded to the US Air Force's draft request for proposals in stridently different tones.
After successfully protesting the Northrop [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]/[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] North America team's victory in February 2008, [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] has adopted a co-operative tone as it considers whether to offer the KC-767, KC-777, or both.
Northrop, however, has already complained that the new acquisition process is "fundamentally unfair", because the Department of Defense briefed pricing details only to Boeing during the last round.
But Northrop officials so far have stopped short of filing an official protest with the Government Accountability Office, saying instead they will "continue to work with [their] customer to fully resolve this issue".
In response, DoD officials say the basis of Northrop's complaint is irrelevant, as both competitors must adopt new pricing formulas to respond to the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]'s new framework for evaluating requirements.
"We've made many more requirements mandatory," deputy secretary of defence William Lynn said as the draft RFP was released on 25 September. "The offerings are going to have to be different to meet those mandatory requirements."
Autrement dit, ... ils ont "moved the goal-post" / "changed the rules" (modifié les règles), ... pour favoriser le(s) produit(s) les moins performants !In comparison with the first round of bidding, the USAF has not fundamentally changed requirements for a new tanker to replace the Boeing KC-135R. But it has changed how they will be evaluated.
Dans l'unique but de favoriser Boeing ! Cela, ... nous le savons depuis longtemps ! Que les USA le reconnaissent, ... c'est tout !Rather than imposing 808 requirements, with only 37 labelled "mandatory", the new acquisition strategy establishes 373 mandatory and 93 non-mandatory requirements.
"Big deal" !Although the number has fallen, few previously stated needs have been dropped. Instead, several requirements listed separately in the previous round have been consolidated and clarified, USAF officials say.
Price will be the determining factor if both proposals meet all the mandatory requirements. If the proposed prices are equal, the USAF will score how each proposal meets the non-mandatory requirements. The service is willing to pay up to 1% of the overall value of the contract more for an aircraft that exceeds its baseline performance requirements.
Non ! Pas "subtile" ! Mais "non clair" ! Voir ci-après !The differences between mandatory and non-mandatory factors are sometimes very subtle. For example, the air force still requires the KC-X aircraft to offload 42,600kg (94,000lb) of fuel after taking off from a 3,050m (10,000ft) runway and flying 1,850km (1,000nm).
Voilà !A corollary on the non-mandatory list includes providing the same offload and range performance after taking off from a 2,130m runway. It is not immediately clear if such a strategy favours any particular aircraft, since all potential bids apparently meet the non-mandatory criteria for fuel offload.
[quote]For example, Boeing has estimated that the KC-767 can offload 44,000kg after a 2,130m take-off roll, which slightly beats the non-mandatory threshold for minimum performance. Its larger KC-777 and the Northrop/EADS [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]-based KC-30 both boast larger payload capacity./[quote]
Ce qui prouve que l'offre de NG-EADS, la dernière fois, était de qualité supérieure et "gagnante", et qu'elle fut "protestée" pour des raisons non valides, mais concoctées ! Ce qui a été prouvé depuis, aussi, ne fût-ce que par la présentation de nouvelles TdR, qui ne vont que dans le sens de favoriser les possibilités de Boeing !
Non ! Non pas "neutraliser", mais "qui permettra d'aller dans le sens de l'atténuer" ! Ce qui n'est point la même chose !Unlike the previous round, the bidders now can also receive up to 10 bonus points for exceeding the minimum fuel offload requirement. This approach appears to neutralise the KC-777's roughly 30% greater payload capacity than the KC-30.
Il serait plus facile d'exclure ce genre de complication futile !The USAF will award 10 bonus points for the ability to offload 66,750kg of fuel at 1,850km range. According to Boeing data, the KC-777 and KC-30 exceed that standard, so both aircraft would receive equal points.
Cela serait juste si des demandes / spécifications supplémenataires après "gel" du cahier des charges son interdires, ou payées par le client !Another new twist in the KC-X contract involves a new formula for compensating the contractors. In the last round, the DoD followed recent custom by reimbursing the contractor's costs during the development phase, plus adding fees to cover profit margin and incentive payments.
The new KC-X competition, however, requires the bidders to commit to a firm price during the development and production phases. The change shifts the risk burden for cost overruns from the US Treasury to the contractor.
Certes, .... mais les coûts de conversion sont substantiels, même au niveau du "design" de base !This change reflects a recent trend in acquisition reform to rely more on fixed-price deals for "off-the-shelf" products. Boeing is considering offering the KC-767 and KC-777, and both tankers would be derived from existing models sold to airlines. The rival KC-30 is based on the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]-derived multirole tanker transport design already sold to several foreign countries.
"Here, you're talking about aircraft that are derivatives of commercial aircraft made in great numbers of a kind that have been operated for decades," a senior defence official says.
-----------
De toutesfaçons, la problème à poser est :
-- Quand les appels d'offres sont internationax, & leurs TdR rédigés par les Autorités américaines, et doivent se conformer à tous points de vue aux caractéristiques légales et normes internationales,
-- et que les pays de la planète entière, concernés directement ou indirectemet, sont en position d'observateurs (et de "juges"), ....
-- ce ne sont pas les opinions des rédacteurs et dirigeants américains qui comptent, en matière d'équité, notamment, ....
-- mais celles desdits observateurs internationaux !
Les Dirgeants des USA , et des Autorités américaines conernées, ... quand vont-ils se mettre à prendre en compte cet aspect des choses, et comment vont-ils justifer, au monde entier, des TdR jugés inéquitables, par tous les non-Américains, et par bon nombre d'Américains, aussi ?
Vont -ils simpleAnt continuer à donner l'impression qu'ils s'en moquent, et qu'ils ne veulent surtout pas de "level playing field " ! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Ven 02 Oct 2009, 10:13
C'est un peu normal... Il est sénateur de l'Alabama.... Mais décidément ce projet sent la poudre.U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., moved Thursday to block funding for new Air Force aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] until the service gives a Northrop Grumman-EADS team price information about rival Boeing's bid in last year's tanker contest.
The move came two days after the Air Force [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] to hand over the equivalent data that the Air Force divulged to Boeing about the Northrop-EADS bid. The Air Force stood by its contention the disclosure to Boeing was in accordance with regulation and that the information given was inaccurate, outdated and not germane to the new tanker contest.
"This issue goes directly to the fundamental fairness of the tanker competition," Sessions said in a [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]. "How can we expect the playing field to be level if one company was given sensitive information about the other's bid? If that is the case, the best way to rectify the situation is to demand that information be shared in both directions. I applaud the willingness of the Northrop Grumman/EADS team to bring this issue to the Pentagon's attention."
Sessions, a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, offered an amendment to the annual defense spending bill that would block spending of federal funds on the tanker program "until the Secretary of the Air Force releases comparable pricing data to both offerors" from the last competition. The Northrop-EADS team would assemble its tanker in Alabama.
Northrop-EADS won the previous tanker competition, but the Pentagon threw it out and declared a new contest after congressional auditors found serious flaws in the process. Debate on the defense appropriations bill is expected to continue into next week.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Ven 02 Oct 2009, 19:37
The Pentagon's former acquisition chief is questioning the Air Force's methodology in the new aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] competition.
"My impression is they are trying to avoid a protest instead of trying to do the best thing for the warfighter," [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] who now directs of the University of Maryland's Center for Public Policy and Private Enterprise, [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]. "You can't treat a sophisticated item like a tanker as though you are buying Kleenex."
Specifically, Gasler said the new draft request for proposals that the Air Force [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] last week was wrong to grade 373 requirements on a simple pass/fail approach and award the contract to the lowest bid, adjusted for certain factors, if it is at least 1 percent below the other bid.
Aviation Week quoted an unnamed "official familiar with the Northrop/EADS team" as saying the methodology favors a smaller, less expensive aircraft. Boeing's 767-based tanker is smaller than the Northrop-EADS Airbus A330-based plane.
Gansler suggested having the Pentagon fund both development programs up front and then hold annual competitions for production lots.
Gansler also told Aviation Week that he was surprised that the Air Force gave pricing data for the winning Northrop-EADS bid to Boeing, given that Boeing was expected to challenge the award. The Pentagon declared a new contest last year after congressional auditors found serious flaws in the previous process. Northrop [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] the same information about Boeing's bid that Boeing got about its.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Ven 02 Oct 2009, 23:58
Lien :
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
EDITORIAL: Tanker Contract Re-Do Will Be Closely Watched
Tri-City Herald, 2009-09-28
By Tri-City Herald, Kennewick, Wash.
Sep. 28--The Air Force procurement office is once again being accused of soaring off into the wild blue yonder.
It's not a compliment this time.
It's that $35 billion to $100 billion tanker competition.
The one that won't go away and can't seem to get resolved.
The one that has lawyers for both competitors, European Airbus and the United States' Boeing, trotting through various revolving courthouse doors like airline passengers late for a flight.
With such a huge contract at stake, everybody in Congress and the European Union seems eager to get involved.
They'd better.
The last go-around, the Air Force award of the contract to Airbus instead of Boeing caused so much national heartburn that the secretary of the Air Force and the four-star chief of staff both lost their jobs. That was under George W. Bush's administration. There were other contributing factors to the ousters, but the contract snafu was a big part of it.
Excuser le gros mot, ...... mais SNAFU = "Situation Normal All Fucked UP" !
Then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said the Air Force would put off rebidding and awarding the contract until the new administration came in.
The new administration is here, and Gates is too, in the same job.
You can bet the procurement office realizes the pressure it is under.
If not, Sens. Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, Rep. Norm Dicks, and other members of our state's congressional delegation are sure to remind them. In fact, they're already doing it.
This time the procurement office says it will not factor in a preliminary finding by the World Trade Organization that Airbus received $5 billion in help from European treasuries to help keep its prices down.
Unfair, say Boeing backers.
Of course, Boeing got into trouble in an earlier round over an aerial tanker contract. During then-president of Boeing Phil Condit's negotiations with the government, Boeing's chief financial officer, Michael M. Sears, violated procurement rules by allegedly offering an Air Force procurement officer a job. The scandal led to Condit's resignation.
Questioning each others' ethical standards could come out a wash for the two industry giants.
But Congress is on alert.
Mais, dans cette affaire, la rédaction des TdR doit respecter les lois américaines et internationales !
As Herald Washington, D.C., reporter Les Blumenthal wrote last week:
"This time, the Pentagon is aware of the WTO litigation and is monitoring the case," said Air Force Lt. Col. Karen Platt. Air Force Secretary Michael Donley said last week, however, that, "At this time we see no need to make adjustments" in the draft request for bids.
To Boeing backers, that's unacceptable.
Les "Boeing Backers" sont ridicules ! Ils se donnent en spectacle !
"The Department of Defense is well aware of how I feel," said Murray, who first raised the Airbus subsidy issue in 1994. "Everyone knows the seriousness of the impact of this. Pentagon leadership has said they plan to conduct a fair and open competition, but a truly fair and open competition needs to start with competitors who play by the rules."
Noting that Airbus received $5 billion in development subsidies, Rep. Dicks said it was "no wonder they can bid lower. The Department of Defense is looking the other way. We hope Boeing wins, but there will be ramifications if it doesn't."
If Boeing wins, there will be thousands of jobs in Washington.
Airbus has promised to build parts of its plane in the United States too.
But in the end, we cannot forget an argument Sen. Murray advanced that has never, to our knowledge, been refuted.
It is at the heart of this matter.
In drawing up the specifications for the new tankers, the Air Force at first put out requirements that it turned out only the Boeing plane could meet.
"Level playing field" ? "My eye" !
It then rewrote the specifications specifically so Airbus could compete. But it would have to compete with an airplane so large, taking so much runway and enlarged hangar space that the Air Force would have to spend billions of dollars on infrastructure changes.
"Rubbish" ! C'est pour cela que Boeing envisage de proposer le B777-200ER ?
All that at air bases where the Boeing tanker could land right now.
Maybe the Air Force procurement officers should explain what's wrong with Murray's observation before they rush off to spend $35 billion to $100 billion.
Ils l'ont déjà expliqué ! Pourquoi devraient-ils se répéter ?
Editorial board members are Rufus Friday, publisher; Chris Sivula, editorial page editor; Ken Robertson, executive editor; Matt Taylor, contributing editor; Lori Lancaster, editorial writer; Shelly Norman, editorial writer and Jack Briggs, retired publisher
Les dirigeants concernés ont de lourdes responsabilités !
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Cougar9 Sam 03 Oct 2009, 09:08
NG obtient le contrat de support logistique des KC-10.
Rien à voir. Vous pariez qu'on va lire le contraire ?
HERNDON, Va., Oct. 2 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --
The U.S. Air Force has awarded Northrop Grumman Corporation a nine-year contract to provide Contractor Logistics
Support (CLS) for its fleet of KC-10 Extender refueling tanker aircraft. The indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contract has a total ceiling value of $3.8 billion.
"We are excited to partner with the Air Force on the KC-10 CLS program and are committed to working with the Air Force to ensure the KC-10 is ready to support air mobility requirements anywhere, anytime," said Ronald D. Sugar, Northrop Grumman chairman and chief executive officer. "This award further demonstrates Northrop Grumman's important role as a premier provider of air mobility solutions."
Under the terms of the contract, Northrop Grumman will provide supply chain management, depot-level logistics integration and support, engine maintenance, aircraft maintenance and modifications for the KC-10 refueling tanker. The tanker/cargo aircraft is part of the Air Force's Air Mobility Command arsenal and has supported anti-terrorist and humanitarian operations around the globe. The team will perform the work at depots located at Northrop Grumman's Lake Charles Maintenance and Modification Center, Lake Charles, La., and at teammate TIMCO Aviation Services' facility in Greensboro, N.C.
Northrop Grumman's other partners include AAR CORP, Wood Dale, Ill.; Chromalloy Gas Turbine LLC, San Antonio; and MTU Maintenance, Richmond, British Colombia.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Cougar9- CLUB
- Messages : 960
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Sam 03 Oct 2009, 09:26
Y verriez vous une espèce de compensation en quelque sorte ?
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Sam 03 Oct 2009, 12:03
Oui ! Oui , ... mais cela est une affaire "domestique", pour ainsi dire, qui ne concerne que NG.
Rien à voir avec NG-EADS !
Futile pour qui que ce soit (côté USA, ou à l'extérieur des USA....), d'invoquer cela !
Evidemment, ... les pinioufs ....... ça tape toujours dans le clavier! Il ne faut pas leur en donner l'occasion ! [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir cette image]
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Dim 04 Oct 2009, 00:20
Le "FT" remet une couche, tout en prenant appui sur les dires de Scott HAMILTON, analyste zméricain qui connaît bien le dossier !
Lien :
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Pentagon faces fresh flak over tanker deal
By Jeremy Lemer
Published & Last updated: September 30 2009 23:27
Il va dalloir que le Pentagone accepte la perception du monde externe !
On Friday the department of defence released its draft request for proposals (RFP), the first step in the acquisition process. It assured Congress and the media that the contest would be played “straight down the middle”.
Paroles qui ne semblent convaincre personne !
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien], the US aerospace company, is competing against a [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] and Airbus team for the first slice of the programme. The USAF has described it as its highest priority, and follow-on contracts could bring the total value to $100bn.
Northrop is already worried that the focus on the price of the aircraft places it at a disadvantage.
The company has long complained that its rival was given access to its sensitive pricing data after losing the last tanker competition, while it had not received similar information about Boeing.
Ceci est vrai, .... et c'est un parfait scandale !
Il devient clair que le Pentagone n'est pas apte à rédger les TdR ou à évaluer les offres objectivement ! Les USA ne devraient jamais se mettre dans une position pareille ! Ceci est un comportment idiot et "immatuire" !
Paul K. Meyer, a vice-president with Northrop, said that with Northrop proposing the same aircraft as last time, “such competitive pricing information takes on even greater importance”. He said: “It is fundamentally unfair, and distorts any new competition, to provide such critical information to only one of the bidders.”
Cela est évident ! N'importe quel imbécile peut voir rt comprendre cela !
Northrop said it was reviewing its options and would work with the customer to resolve the issue.
Last week, the DoD said it had examined the concerns and found the disclosures “created no competitive disadvantage because the data in question are inaccurate, outdated and not germane to this source-selection strategy.”
Quelle arrogance ! Qu'ils le prouvent ! Cecvi est un jugement "avant le fait", totalement illégal dans les ciconstances, car le DoD s'érige en juge et partie !
A Boeing spokesman said: “Our position is that the USAF clearly and definitively dealt with this issue and we look forward to our first meeting with the Air Force in this competition.”
Er l'objectivité de Boeing est au-dessus de tiout soupçon, n'est-ce pas ?!
Despite the controversy, Scott Hamilton, an aviation industry consultant, said that RFP had proved a mixed bag for both teams. The USAF ignored demands from Boeing supporters that it penalise Airbus for receiving “illegal” subsidies.
Il eût ét illégal de les prendre en compte, et Scott HAMILTON le sait, ... puisqu'il fait partie des gens qui avaient soulevé cet aspect !
Conversely, Airbus and Northrop had hoped that the procurement would focus on the capability of the aircraft rather than their price, giving its larger aircraft an advantage. But in the end it too was disappointed. The two teams now have about 60 days to comment on the RFP after which the Pentagon will release a final RFP. The government expects to take up to 120 days to evaluate the bids, and aims to award a contract in summer 2010.
The Northrop claims threaten to embroil the contest in the type of controversy that derailed two previous attempts to let the contract to replace 179 of the air force’s 50-year-old tankers.
NG-EADS est fondé à entreprendre toutes actions légales qui protègent ses intérêts !
In 2004, the first effort to replace the tankers using a $20bn lease-and-buy combination [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] which saw Boeing’s former chief financial officer and a top Air Force procurement official sent to prison.
In 2008, the EADS and Northrop-Grumman team unexpectedly won the contest [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] leading to widespread accusations of US protectionism.
Quelle vaste fumisterie !
Previous failures have placed Pentagon officials under enormous pressure to create a competition that is free of controversy this time round.
“[The US] cannot afford the kind of letdowns and parochial squabbles and corporate food fights that have bedevilled this effort over the last number of years,” Robert Gates, defence secretary, said recently.
But the warnings appear to have fallen on deaf ears, said Mr Hamilton, the industry consultant. “This is shaping up to be another ugly contest.”
Les dirigeants américains concernés nous cassent les pieds et les oreilles ! NG-EADS n'a qu'à refuser de soumettre une offre, ce qui fermerait le dossier et obligerait le Pentagon à retourner à la "Case Départ, ... moins une" !
Dernière édition par SEVRIEN le Jeu 08 Oct 2009, 19:43, édité 1 fois
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jaguar Jeu 08 Oct 2009, 17:51
NEW YORK, 8 oct 2009 (AFP)
Le constructeur aéronautique américain Boeing a nommé l'amiral à la retraite Edmund Giambastiani, ex-numéro deux de l'armée américaine, à son conseil d'administration, a-t-il annoncé jeudi dans un communiqué.
2009 AFP
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jaguar- CLUB
- Messages : 412
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Jeu 08 Oct 2009, 18:29
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]Commentator: giving Boeing tanker contract would be criminal
[/b]If it's possible to amp up the politicization of the U.S. Air Force's aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] contract any more, the conservative American Spectator just did so.
"The Pentagon is playing dirty pool on behalf of the already-dirtiest pool players from Boeing, with regard to the huge (179-plane, about $40 billion) air refueling tanker contract that Northrop Grumman Corp. and EADS won fair and square last year before it was stolen away from them," Quin Hillyer, a senior editorial writer at the Washington Times and senior editor of The American Spectator, [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] on the latter publication's Web site Thursday.
Revisiting the aftermath of last year's Northrop-EADS win, Hillyer asserted that "Boeing launched an unprecedented and underhanded political-hardball campaign" against the award.
Continuing with Hillyer's version of events, congressional auditors upheld only Boeing's least-serious allegations about problems with the previous award process, but Defense Secretary Robert Gates seized on this "reed-thin basis" to call for a new contest "on the same day that Gates and other Pentagon brass dined at the Boeing table for a major 9-11 memorial dinner."
Gates' conspiratorial ties deepen with the revelation that he "just so happens to have a house, where he plans to eventually retire, just outside of Seattle, where he also has family ties and where Boeing rules the roost," Hillyer notes, adding, parenthetically: "How much do you want to bet that Gates ends up as a Boeing 'consultant'?"
But Hillyer's real point is that the new draft tanker request for proposals that the Air Force [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] last month tweaked requirements to favor Boeing.
"Most disturbing of those tweaks were ones that actually de-emphasized the importance of a plane's greater capabilities in the name of focusing only on price," he wrote. "Because it was those greater capabilities of the Northrop plane that made the biggest difference for Northrop last time, this change clearly helps Boeing -- at the expense, perhaps, of the safety or capabilities of America's airmen."
Hillyer also howls at the Pentagon's giving Boeing pricing data from Northrop-EADS' last bid -- a standard disclosure to the losing bidder, by all accounts. The Pentagon has maintained that the disclosure was in accordance with regulations and that the data is irrelevant to the new contest.
Before I get to the exciting conclusion, I should note that Hillyer favors splitting the contract between Boeing and Northrop-EADS as a way to get more planes faster and at less long-term cost.
Hillyer ends his column by expressing fear that the fix is in to give Boeing the contract.
"I'm here to say that if, after all this, Boeing gets the whole contract, the stench of corruption will be so asphyxiating that nobody involved should expect anything other than to have prosecutors knocking at their doors," he fumes. "With handcuffs. For just cause."
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Ven 09 Oct 2009, 11:54
Bien sur la divulgation du prix d e l'offre précédente de Northrop,
La méthode de choix qui favorise les petits avions,
Boeing pourrait faire deux réponses... pour ne pas perdre le deal.
Cela promet !!!!
The U.S. Air Force is already on the defensive about its plans for the KC-X competition, with a former top procurement official questioning the source-selection methodology and Northrop Grumman/EADS asserting it has been put at a disadvantage by the disclosure of its pricing data to rival Boeing.
The Pentagon last week dismissed complaints from a Northrop Grumman executive on the pricing data claim. But the issue is already festering, potentially spoiling the Air Force’s hopes to have a KC-135 replacement on contract by mid-2010. Discussions continue between Northrop Grumman CEO Ronald Sugar and top Pentagon officials, according to Randy Belote, the company’s vice president for strategic communications.
In its Sept. 29 statement, Northrop Grumman says it is “greatly concerned” that pricing data from the 2008 competition was divulged during a debriefing to Boeing on its loss.
“With predominant emphasis placed on price in this tanker re-competition and Northrop Grumman again proposing its KC-45 refueling tanker, such competitive pricing information takes on even greater importance,” the statement says. “It is fundamentally unfair, and distorts any new competition, to provide such critical information to only one of the bidders.”
Northrop Grumman won a $1.5-billion development contract for the Airbus A330-200-based tankers, then named the KC-45 by the Air Force, in February 2008; a Boeing protest led to termination of the contract in the summer.
The Pentagon counters that the disclosure was “in accordance with regulation and, more importantly, that it created no competitive disadvantage because the data in question are inaccurate, outdated and not germane to this source-selection strategy.” Northrop Grumman officials have requested that the playing field be leveled by releasing the pricing data on Boeing’s 767-based tanker in the 2008 competition, though the Pentagon has signaled no willingness to do so.
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), however, is forcing the issue with a new amendment to the Fiscal 2010 defense spending bill to block KC-X funding unless the Air Force hands over the data.
Jacques Gansler, Pentagon procurement chief from 1997-2001 and now director of the University of Maryland’s Center for Public Policy and Private Enterprise, is surprised about the disclosure. “They were wrong knowing there was a protest [coming] to give out the pricing data,” he tells Aviation Week. He says with a winner-take-all strategy for such a large program—estimated at $35 billion for 179 tankers—another protest should be expected from the loser of the forthcoming duel. “My impression is they are trying to avoid a protest instead of trying to do the best thing for the warfighter,” he says.
Boeing is apparently trying to remain on the sidelines. “The Air Force clearly and definitively dealt with this issue,” says William Barksdale, communications director for Boeing’s tanker team.
Gansler, who has no affiliation with either team, also criticizes the source-selection methodology. Each bid will be judged on a pass/fail basis on 373 mandatory requirements, and thereafter the remaining bids will be priced, with cost adjusted based on two other “non-price” factors, according to Deputy Defense Secretary William Lynn. These factors are wartime effectiveness, or how the aircraft will operate during a surge operation, and peacetime efficiency, based on the KC-135’s 489-hr.-per-year average rate.
According to Gansler and some industry officials, this not a true “best-value” approach. “You can’t treat a sophisticated item like a tanker as though you are buying Kleenex,” he says. “It is not a commodity. . . . The idea of simply awarding something so important and sophisticated to the lower bidder is not the way to do it.”
One official familiar with the Northrop Grumman/EADS team says the Air Force’s source-selection methodology favors a smaller and less expensive aircraft. “Every gate is a price gate,” the official says.
During the last competition, Northrop Grumman/EADS made a similar argument, threatening not to bid. The Air Force then devised the Integrated Fleet Air-Refueling Assessment (Ifara), a modeling tool used to judge effectiveness and flexibility of the aircraft in various war scenarios. This was weighed equally with cost last time around.
Gansler says the approach most likely to deliver tankers in a timely fashion would cost the government more upfront but save money in the long term. He suggests funding both developments and conducting annual competitions—with the best-performing team winning the lion’s share for each year. Saying “history is on my side,” he notes that choosing a single supplier for a system does not take advantage of competition to maintain pressure on price.
Meanwhile, Boeing is considering offering two proposals in order to clench the “must-win” program, according to officials close to the company’s planning. They say they are looking at the 767 and 777 as platforms for the design. One of the officials says the cost of proposing two bids is not prohibitive for Boeing in comparison to the amount of money spent to date on this campaign.
Attention il y a deux pages...
[url=http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/KCX100509.xml&headline=Pentagon''s KC-X Process Questioned&channel=defense][Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] KC-X Process Questioned&channel=defense[/url]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Ven 09 Oct 2009, 14:31
Il vaudrait mieux recommencer à zero et on est reparti pour...U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Tuscaloosa, on Thursday ripped top Pentagon officials, including Defense Secretary Robert Gates, for their handling of the Air Force tanker competition, accusing them of tilting the selection criteria in favor of Boeing Co.
"One would think that our Air Force's top priority would be to ensure that our men and women in uniform have the best, most capable equipment. Clearly that is not the case," Shelby said in a speech on the Senate floor.
Shelby and other Alabama political leaders are pressing the Pentagon to release pricing data from Boeing's bid in the last round of competition with rival Northrop Grumman Corp., which is proposing to assemble its tankers in Mobile.
Los Angeles-based Northrop won the potential $40 billion contract last year, but the deal unraveled when the Government Accountability Office, acting on a protest filed by Chicago-based Boeing, found problems with the way the Air Force made its selection.
Boeing, under standard procedure in government contracting, received details of Northrop's winning bid soon after the decision was announced in February 2008.
After the GAO issued its ruling that June, Gates canceled the deal with Northrop and ordered a rematch.
The Pentagon released its proposed bidding guidelines last month, and has rejected Northrop's requests to see details of Boeing's losing bid.
U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Mobile, proposed an amendment to the 2010 defense spending bill that would have blocked funding for new tankers, the Air Force's top priority, until the Pentagon released the pricing data to both bidders.
But the amendment was not included in the Senate's version of the bill approved late Tuesday.
Mobile Mayor Sam Jones called on Gates to release the Boeing data, saying the failure to do so "would undermine public confidence ... (and) invite further protests and delays."
"Unfortunately, the competition appears to be tainted from the start," Jones wrote in an Oct. 1 letter to Gates. "To the same extent that Northrop's pricing information was compromised, Boeing's should be made available also."
Shelby criticized Gates for pulling the plug on the 2008 deal with Northrop. That decision, he said "placed politics and business interests over the interests of the warfighter."
"While Secretary Gates may have characterized this decision as a 'cooling off' period, it sent the clear message that only a Boeing tanker will be acceptable," Shelby said. "The defense acquisition policy was unmistakable: No Boeing, no tanker."
Pentagon officials have said the Boeing pricing data is outdated and not relevant to the current contest. They have proposed sweeping changes to the Air Force's selection criteria, simplifying the list of requirements for the new planes and placing a heavier emphasis on price.
The companies are about two weeks into a 60-day period, during which they can submit comments about the Air Force's proposed guidelines. Military leaders said they hope to issue a final request for bids later this year and pick a winner by summer.
The new tankers are needed to replace the Air Force's aging fleet of KC-135 Stratotankers, which average nearly 50 years in service. The workhorse KC-135s are used to refuel fighter jets, cargo planes and other military aircraft in flight.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Sam 10 Oct 2009, 00:09
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]Boeing's bid for the Air Force's $35 billion aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] contract is the clear choice for investing in American workers, knowledge, security and future, the presidents of 10 AFL-CIO state federations said in a letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates last week.
"Given the current state of the U.S. economy, taxpayer dollars shouldn't be funding the economic growth of European countries. This money should be invested at home," the labor leaders wrote, according to an [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]. "The U.S. military and the American citizens it protects should not be put in a position where any foreign government has control over our nation's military capabilities."
Boeing's rival is a team of U.S. contractor Northrop Grumman and Europe's EADS. Awarding the contract to Northrop-EADS would hamper efforts to revive the U.S. economy, jeopardize the U.S. industrial base and endanger security by giving EADS and its foreign suppliers the technological specifications of every military plane that the tankers refuel, the letter says.
AFL-CIO Washington leader Rick Bender signed the letter, as did state leaders Rebekah Friend (Arizona), John Olsen (Connecticut), Michael Carrigan (Illinois), Andy Sanchez (Kansas), Edward Gorman (Maine), Mark Gaffney (Michigan), Hugh McVey (Montana), Tom Chamberlain (Oregon) and David Newby (Wisconsin).
L'AFL-CIO est (selon Wilipedia)
Ce n'est donc pas anormal.The American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations, commonly AFL-CIO, is a [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien], the largest federation of [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] in the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] and [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien], made up of 65 national and international unions, together representing more than 10 million workers. It was formed in 1955 when the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] and the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] merged after a long estrangement. From 1955 until 2005, the AFL-CIO's member unions represented nearly all unionized workers in the United States. The largest union in the AFL-CIO is the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] (AFSCME), with more than a million members, since 2005 when several large unions split away from AFL-CIO.
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Sam 17 Oct 2009, 23:37
"Nous devons clairement comprendre comment les impératifs de fonctionnement sont définis et classés et comment notre proposition sera evaluée."
Cela ouvre la porte au débat et donc aux "lawyers" (juste un pure DPO).
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]Boeing is posing questions to the U.S. Air Force to clarify the draft aerial refueling [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] and is open to suggestions for what else to ask, spokesman Bill Barksdale [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien] Friday.
"Our United States Tanker team has spent a great deal of time studying the draft RFP. Remember this is the main document we'll be using to decide which member of our KC-7A7 'family of tankers' to offer, or whether to offer both," Barksdale wrote. "But we can't just make decisions on what's written in the document alone. Our main focus as we drive toward some key internal decisions is clarity. We must clearly understand how the service's requirements are defined and prioritized, and how our proposal will be evaluated."
Any potential bidder can submit questions to the Air Force and have them answered online at the [Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien], Barksdale noted. "We began submitting questions earlier this month and look forward to seeing the answers posted on the public website soon. While some of that Q&A may be administrative in nature, you might gain some interesting insight into how the process works by checking out the site. Feel free to tell us what you'd ask."
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par VictorK Mar 20 Oct 2009, 15:09
WASHINGTON, 20 octobre (Reuters) - EADS devait annoncer mardi matin la nomination de Sean O'Keefe, ancien administrateur de la Nasa, au poste de directeur général des opérations du groupe en Amérique du Nord, rapportent deux sources au fait du dossier.
Ralph Crosby, actuel directeur général d'EADS pour l'Amérique du Nord, occupera la fonction de président du conseil
d'administration, ont ajouté les sources qui ont requis l'anonymat car les nominations devraient être officialisées dans la journée.
Sean O'Keefe a occupé le poste de secrétaire à la Marine et il a dirigé la Nasa de 2001 à 2005 sous l'administration Bush. Il a été nommé en mars 2008 directeur des opérations à Washington pour la filiale aviation de General Electric .
(Andrea Shalal-Esa, version française Gwénaelle Barzic)
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
VictorK- CLUB
- Messages : 1029
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par SEVRIEN Mar 20 Oct 2009, 15:43
Mais est-ce que ceci portera des fruits ?
SEVRIEN- Membre
- Messages : 20088
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mar 20 Oct 2009, 17:53
Gageons de cela sera l'arme ultime de Northrop Gruman.WASHINGTON — Le patron d'EADS, Louis Gallois, a accusé mardi les Etats-Unis de favoriser son concurrent Boeing dans la bataille pour les ravitailleurs de l'armée de l'air américaine, en ayant fourni à Boeing le prix de l'appareil conçu par Northrop Grumman et EADS.
"Bien sûr c'est pratique pour Boeing d'avoir le prix de notre ravitailleur" alors qu'EADS ne connaît pas celui de Boeing, a déclaré M. Gallois, interrogé au cours d'une conférence à Washington sur des accusations semblables formulées récemment par le partenaire américain d'EADS, Northrop Grumman.
Le dirigeant du groupe européen d'aéronautique et de défense a rappelé que les deux concurrents dans cet appel d'offres présentaient "globalement le même" appareil.
"C'est une question de confiance" entre EADS et le Pentagone, a encore considéré M. Gallois, président exécutif du groupe européen.
Northrop Grumman avait lancé la même accusation en septembre, en expliquant que cette information sur le prix avait une "importance particulière" dans la compétition.
Le ministère de la Défense américain a annoncé le 24 septembre qu'il rouvrait la compétition pour le renouvellement de la flotte d'avions ravitailleurs américaine, qui oppose le constructeur américain Boeing à l'alliance EADS/Northrop Grumman.
Ce contrat de 35 milliards de dollars portant sur 179 avions avait été attribué par le Pentagone en février 2008 à EADS et Northrop Grumman. Mais Boeing avait contesté la décision et obtenu que la Cour des comptes américaine (GAO) ordonne un redémarrage du processus d'appel d'offres.
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Re: TANKER USAF - Appels d'offres
par Jeannot Mar 20 Oct 2009, 18:01
Ce lien permet de télécharger un PDF reprenant ces questions et les réponses de l'USAF. J'ai un peu l'impression que le débit minimum de la perche gênerait Boeing (pure DPO).Bonne lecture...
[Vous devez être inscrit et connecté pour voir ce lien]
Jeannot- Membre
- Messages : 10002
Localisation : Vexin 78
Page 3 sur 22 • 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12 ... 22
|
|