Boeing 787

While in the past I've been skeptical of a second FAL, now I am starting to think it's going to happen and happen sooner rather than later. Clearly, the subs will need to beef up their infrastructure to be able to handle a combined production rate of 16-20 frames a month, but I think Boeing is going to launch a second FAL designed around the 787-9 (and perhaps 787-10) in a place like Charleston and leave Everett to handle initial production of the 787-8 and 787-3.

With the 787-9 not due for almost four years, that does give Boeing time to help the subs get ready to support the second FAL and for Boeing to prepare the FAL itself.

Tomorrow's issue of Aviation Week quotes that industry insiders fear the wing issue "might add another 18 month delay".

A delay of this magnitude would indicate to me that the permanent fix comes down to some serious redesign. Would be interesting to know what role the previous failure of the center wing box plays in all this.

Ice-T a écrit:Bonjour,
Sur Aviation Week :
Boeing adapte la variante -9 du 787.....pas simple ( pour moi ! )

Boeing plans to complete firm design configuration of the stretched 787-9 version in the second half of 2009, but to save weight, it will not be restoring window positions lost as a result of fuselage join issues.

The passenger windows on the initial production 787-8 aircraft are missing a window on each side at locations fore and aft where the pre-assembled fuselage Sections 46/47 and 41/43 are mated.
Although designed with a continuous window line, the mating area between the sections required strengthening when attached, forcing Boeing to omit the window along the join line.

Re-design studies showed that strengthening the fuselage join area to re-insert windows was "very
complex" and would cost "hundred of pounds" in additional weight, says Tom Cogan, the former 787 chief project engineer, who became director of airplane product development in July 2008.

The loss of a window in the forward Section 41/43 join is not considered a major setback as this is close
to the 'door two' galley and lavatory block which does not need one.

The missing window further aft by the Section 46/47 join is a more serious issue, as this section of the
cabin is for seating only. However, Cogan says at least one seat row on existing Boeing products is currently blanked off because of air conditioning ducts running up the inside of the fuselage, and that airlines have always adapted to this.

Ironically, Boeing made special efforts to widen the windows on the 787 cabin by taking advantage of the fuselage structure's composite material to route internal systems through narrower spaces between windows than would have been possible on a conventionally built airframe.

Cogan, who was speaking at the New Horizons forum organized to coincide with the AIAA aerospace sciences
meeting in Orlando, Fla, this week, acknowledged that the program continues to face "big challenges, but by and large it is looking very positive."

Cogan had been on the 787 and preceding Sonic Cruiser since 2001, describes his appointment away from the
troubled program as "a bitter sweet change," but adds the change allows him to take stock of the progress made-to-date.

"It is going well for the most part but obviously we are not where we wanted to be on the schedule. The
things we were most worried about, like being the first large aircraft to be made out of composite, and whether we knew how to do it, or if we could make it work, turned out not to be the real issue. As it turns out it, it is the small things like fasteners that keep an aircraft from flying. It is something we tried to pay attention to and one of the things that caused us to be late. But our customers are hanging with us because they know this is a good aircraft they need. They're being patient and it will fly."

Cogan adds the broad target remains of mid-2009, though internal Boeing schedules point to a first flight target of late April.

Cogan also acknowledges the baseline aircraft "is a bit heavier than what we thought. We set a very aggressive target and we learned things along the way such as having electro-magnetic interference protection and designing for that and other changes we added a bit more weight. This does detract a little bit from performance but we still think it will be around 20% more efficient than anything today."

Being more specific, however,
Cogan clarifies this adding "compared to the 767 it's not quite 20%, but in that order. Analytically we're doing quite well, but we just don't know how well until we fly. All the indications are today that we'll get it."

As for lessons learned, Cogan fell short of the criticism of the program partnerships meted out by former 787 vice president, Mike Bair, following his 2006 departure from the effort. He did, however, acknowledge the need for some change.

"As for the model we used on international collaboration we'd absolutely do it again, though there are some details we'd probably fine tune a little bit - this was a first on this scale. We'd also worked with a lot of these partners on the 777, though in hindsight we'd change a few things, but just fine tune it. What's important for
us is to draw on that intellectual property - we think we have the best technology available."
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Jeannot a écrit:Bonsoir Sévrien

Je vois que vous n'avez pas perdu la forme...

Jeannot a écrit:Il ya pourtant des clients de Boeing qui sont heureux. Je parle des japonais d'ANA. Ils viennent même de convertir des 767 en "Dream" liners et de plus ils vont avoir les animaux les plus lourds.

Est-ce un problème de prix ?
Est-ce un problème de compensation ?

J'avoue que je suis un peu frustré car je m'attendais à plus d'annulation que cela. Mais c'est peut-être encore un peu trop tôt.

Et les premiers clients aussi, non ? Ils doivent quand même obtenir quelques réponses. Le patron d' ILFC par exemple, j' imagine mal qu' on le laisse mariner quand il exige au bout du fil.... C' est pas qu' on lui dit la vérité vraie mais on ne lui ment pas trop...

Pour les sous-traitants français, je ne sais pas ! Mais certaines informations ne sont pas forcément toujours gardées quoiqu' on dise, les amitiés cela existe.

Et puis si cela ne repose sur rien, on perdrait beaucoup à ne pas pouvoir supputer sur ce forum. Beaucoup de sel !Sur certain domaines il n' y a pas d' infos donc il ne reste plus que des avis.

le premier vol est aussi pour les clients qui ont commandé l' occasion de se rassurer, le 787 qui est un succès sans précédent est révolutionnaire, ce n' est pas n' importe quel lancement. Ce sera une étape dans le processus industriel de cet avion, attendue par tous, qui montrera que cet avion vole bien, on s' en doute bien, mais il faut toujours prouver. En attendant les étapes suivantes.

Avoir commandé une centaine de 787 donne des droits, des infos sur la progression du processus industriel,

....sont nécessaires, et ce d'autant plus qu' il y a eu des retards successifs

....et des amendes à négocier.

La pression doit monter de la part des clients, clients qui peuvent aussi aller voir ailleurs le cas échéant, c' est rare, mais un vendeur ne doit jamais l'oublier.

C' est d' ailleurs Udvar-Hazy qui a révélé le problème de wing-box, je crois. Un petit coup de griffe... comme une piqure de rappel.

.....ANA et les premiers clients doivent, à mon avis, être informé plus que les autres, et dès que possible sur ce premier vol.

Tout cela c' est simplement logique.

"le drame est que chaque communication que Boeing émet sur les progrès faits, ou les problèmes rencontrés, produit aujourd'hui des réactions négatives du genre, "Oh, bon sang, ... c'est encore pire qu'on ne pensait, et que Boeing lui-même ne semble avoir réalisé" !

ces communications avaient / ont le mérite d'être franches, ouvertes, ... mais le défaut d'être contreproductives, car, précisent-ils, "Boeing est tout près du point où l'on pourrait commencer à perdre confiance en cet avion, même si Boeing est, en réalité, près de résoudre tous les problèmes ! Et cela serait une catastrophe !"

Boeing est en train de donner l'impression qu'il ne sait plus conduire un projet de nouvel avion (à ne pas confondre avec des dérivés).

Ils ont souligné, "In these moments, we don't even want the clients on the land" !

-- c'est un épisode que tous les professionnels et les clients aimeraient oublier ;
-- ils disent que le premier vol sera un grand moment, ... mais ajoutent que, quelle que soit la manière dont l'affaire se déroulera, quelle que soit la "mise en scène", les clients et eux n'y voient, aujourd'hui, aucun moment de fête à anticiper, ... mais seulement une possibilité de grand soulagement ;
-- ils ont dit, "Boeing will get it right in the end ; they are bound to ; they have to ; they have no choice".......

Boeing Considers Delaying Dreamliner Deliveries
By J. LYNN LUNSFORD

Boeing Co. is considering pushing back the first deliveries of its flagship 787 Dreamliner by at least six more months to account for the recent strike by union machinists, as well as other snags in getting the troubled jetliner airborne.

According to people familiar with the situation, Boeing officials are expected to announce later this month that the first deliveries of the fuel-efficient jet might not occur until as late as summer 2010, more than two years after the jet was originally scheduled to enter service.

In recent days, these people said, Boeing officials have been meeting with suppliers and partners on the jet program in an effort to get their arms around a number of challenges that have sprung up in part because of the volume of work that Boeing outsourced on the program.

The problems on the high-profile jetliner program have become a source of growing embarrassment for Boeing, which had prided itself on delivering its jets on time.

The delays on the Dreamliner have also bled into other programs, such as Boeing's efforts to update its 747 jumbo jet. Last month, Boeing said a new version of the four-engine plane with the distinctive hump on its fuselage would be as much as nine months late entering the market, in part because engineering resources were being gobbled up by the Dreamliner.

A Boeing spokesman declined to comment Thursday about potential new 787 delays, saying the company is "currently reviewing the schedule" and would have an announcement at a later date.

A person who has been involved in the discussions said "there is no question" that the airplane will be delayed further. "The real issue right now is that Boeing wants to make sure it has a believable date before going back to the customers with more bad news."

Daniel Michaels contributed to this article.

Le but est de transmettre une certaine réalité perçue, ni plus ni moins, que des professionnels, travaillant 'in situ' ont eu l'amabilité de nous présenter. Et ceci semble être accepté par ceux qui privlégient les faits,....mais conspué par les ùù==ùù, derpetes du DPO, qui font semblant de savoir, et qui (pour des raisons que personne de sensé ne comprend) préfèrent diffuser de la propagande infondée et non étayable.

Boeing 787: ANA veut être informée en priorité d'un éventuel nouveau retard
TOKYO, 11 déc 2008 (AFP)

Le patron de la deuxième compagnie aérienne japonaise, All Nippon Airways (ANA), qui doit être la première à utiliser le nouvel avion de ligne moyen porteur Boeing 787, a déclaré qu'il souhaitait être informé en priorité d'un éventuel énième report des livraisons.
© 2008 AFP

Le patron de la deuxième compagnie aérienne japonaise, All Nippon Airways (ANA), qui doit être la première à utiliser le nouvel avion de ligne moyen porteur Boeing 787, a déclaré qu'il souhaitait être informé en priorité d'un éventuel énième report des livraisons.

Mineo Yamamoto, directeur général exécutif d'ANA, dit toujours attendre le premier exemplaire du B787 en octobre 2009, avec déjà 18 mois de retard sur l'échéancier initial, conformément à ce que l'avionneur américain Boeing a officiellement indiqué jusqu'à présent.

Cependant, des rumeurs font état d'un nouveau calendrier en préparation, selon lequel le premier surnommé "Dreamliner" n'arriverait chez ANA que début 2010, soit grosso modo avec un différé supplémentaire de six mois.

"Nous sommes le client inaugural et nous aimerions à ce titre prendre connaissance (d'un nouveau changement) avant quiconque d'autre", a déclaré M. Yamamoto à l'agence Dow Jones Newswires, lors d'un déplacement à Chicago.

ANA a commandé au total 50 B787 dont le premier exemplaire devait en théorie entrer dans sa flotte en mai dernier. Boeing a reconnu début novembre que le premier vol d'essai du B787 ne pourra plus avoir lieu d'ici la fin de l'année comme prévu. Le rival d'Airbus n'a cependant pas détaillé depuis de nouvel échéancier pour les étapes ultérieures, la direction de Boeing ayant, selon ses dires, besoin de temps pour évaluer la situation.

Un calendrier mis à jour sera rendu public une fois cet examen terminé, avait alors fait savoir une porte-parole. Une annonce officielle à ce sujet pourrait avoir lieu cette semaine, d'après des médias.

Bon Boeing nous fait son cinéma et a « compensé » l’annonce du retard « inattendu » du 787 par une commande surprise.

Mais ce nouveau retard
1. ne va-t-il pas engendrer des demandes de pénalités ?

2. ne vat-il pas mettre ou renforcer le doute de la profession sur la capacité de Boeing à se sortir de ce guêpier ?

3. ne va-t-il pas provoquer des demandes d’annulation de la part des compagnies clientes qui seront ainsi trop contente de profiter de cette aubaine.....

:
....et ainsi de mettre en position d’attente face à la crise ?

4. ne va-t-il pas considérablement augmenter les coûts de production de cet oiseau et affaiblir considérablement la position financière de Boeing ?

Boeing delays Dreamliner debut
By Justin Baer in New York

Published: December 11 2008 15:20 | Last updated: December 11 2008 19:15

Boeing has postponed the first deliveries of its 787 Dreamliner for a fourth time, moving the commercial debut of the aircraft into 2010, a delay of nearly two years.

DATE:25/11/08. SOURCE:Flight International
747-8 schedule undone by 787 crisis, management errors
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Qatar Air says Boeing 787 delay affects expansionSun Jan 11, 2009 5:51am EST

By John Irish
DUBAI (Reuters) - State-owned Qatar Airways is in talks to revise delivery of Boeing Co's 787 Dreamliner jet and is seeking compensation after the manufacturer's latest delay affected the airline's expansion.

Ali al-Rais, the airline's executive vice-president, commercial, said no new delivery deadline has been set yet.

"They already know they have been at fault," he told reporters in Dubai. "They know that the standard clause will kick in."

Qatar Airways, which has a fleet of more than 60 planes and has been expanding rapidly, has about 200 planes on order including 30 787 Dreamliners.

Boeing pushed back the schedule for its troubled 787 Dreamliner for the fourth time last December, making its new plane almost two years late.

Qatar had originally expected a 12-month delay, but as of yet no new schedule was set.

"We have not banked totally on the 787 and do have an agreement with Airbus ... We will not be hassling our supplier, there is compensation and we are discussing the schedule."

Rais declined to say how much the airline would receive in compensation.

More than 50 airlines are waiting for 892 Boeing 787s, worth a combined $145 billion at list prices. The 787 has been held up as the U.S. plane maker makes slow progress on assembling planes and struggles with other delays.

On Sunday, Rais told reporters the carrier expected to receive its A380 orders by 2011 to coincide with the opening of a new airport. The airline has ordered five of the world's largest passenger plane from Airbus.

Qatar Airways, which begins flights to Houston on March 30 to tap into the U.S. energy hub's close links with the world's largest exporter of liquefied natural gas, expects to receive at least 12 Boeing 777s in 2009, Rais said.

The airline is looking at passenger growth of as much as 35 percent this year despite the global financial crisis as it looks to focus its expansion into Asia, Africa and the Middle East.
"There has been a drop in Europe, but we still have the rest of the world ... we are able to redesign our strategy," Rais said.
(Writing by Amran Abocar; Editing by Anshuman Daga and David Cowell)

Boeing has elected not to replace all the temporary fasteners on the first six 787 test aircraft because they are not in critical load areas.

The manufacturer confirmed a Leeham Co. report stating that "the small number of fasteners that won't be replaced are not easy to reach and don't represent a safety of flight issue. They have the ability to withstand the loads and number of cycles expected during the flight test program. They must be repaired before long-term operations begin so they will be replaced during the refurbishment program after flight test."

There are no details available on the percentage of fasteners involved, but Boeing said the number declines from aircraft one through aircraft six.

Work has reached a "frenetic pace" on the first test aircraft (ZA001), according to a source on the production floor, and re-power-on of the first flight test aircraft, now moved to the 767 production hall, is expected later this week.

At the same time, final assembly is due to start on flight test aircraft ZA005, while the wings for ZA006 arrived last week.
By Geoffrey THOMAS

Dubai-based aircraft leasing firm LCAL has slashed its order for Boeing 787 Dreamliners to five planes from 21 due to the global economic crisis, Boeing's regional spokesman said on Thursday.
The global downturn which has sent much of the industrialised world into recession has hurt airlines as fewer people travel, forcing carriers to review capital spending and abandon less-profitable routes.

......"LCAL is preparing for tough challenges caused by the global recession," Daghestani added, without giving details on when the remaining five planes would be delivered or the value of the deal. Daghestani declined to say if other clients in the Middle East might also cancel orders.

.... the global financial crisis has also taken its toll on the Gulf Arab region, where a six-year economic boom came to an end late last year as oil prices collapsed.....

Qatar Airways, which has about 30 787s on order, said in January it was in talks to revise delivery of the jets and was seeking compensation after the manufacturer's latest delay affected the airline's expansion......
(Reuters)

On se devait, donc, de s'interrogger sur les impacts éventuels de tout ceci sur l'A350-XWB !

Sir Richard Branson, founder of the Virgin Group, blasted The Boeing Co. at a celebration of a new Virgin airline, held Friday morning on Boeing's own turf.

"If people in Seattle build our planes and deliver them on time and, to be frank, don't go on strike, then we'll continue to work with Boeing. If we have our airline completely messed up, with tremendous damage done to our own work force, then we'll go to Embraer or Airbus."

"The delay on the 787 has been an absolute nightmare, and it's cost us a fortune. It really does make us think, 'Do we want to take a risk on Boeing in the future?' " Branson said.